An Tir IL dated 2012-05-05 (Jump to Submissions)

To Anthony Black Lion, Oddr Lions Blood, and the venerable College of heralds in An Tir and the known world, I send greetings from Viktor Black Talbot. This month we have 8 items appearing in the letter.

Commentary for this letter will be due by June 9th.


Unto the College of Heralds of An Tir: Greetings!

Congratulations to Tóki Sinister Gauntlet, now invested as Gorges Pursuivant for Aquaterra and having completed his first duties as Court Herald at Art of War this past weekend.

Congratulations also to Elizabeth Sable Chime, for inspiring her fighter to great deeds at Bar Gemels.

If there are any other congratulatory messages to be proclaimed, please send them to me around the end of the month. Seriously -- I love spreading happy news. It's a perk of the office.

I am also pleased to note that this weekend the Board of Directors accepted what are now termed the "Standards for Evaluation of Names and Armory". These replace the Rules for Submission, and are currently located (in their Final Draft form) at Laurel Staff is busy making the final renamings and website edits, so expect some shuffling in the very near future.

All commenters need to become familiar with them. We begin implementation of the new Standards with this letter.

As part of the transition, beginning with the May 2012 Wreath and Pelican meetings, both the RfS and the SENA will be in effect, and items that completely satisfy either will meet the requirement for registerability. This transition ends with the November meetings, when only the SENA will be considered. This means, assuming I follow the calendar correctly, that we must be completely transitioned starting with the items appearing on the July Internal Letter. Some provisions exist which modify this, but we do not anticipate encountering them.

The next Lions Blood meetings will be:

- Sunday, 27 May, noon at my house, discussing the contents of the April letter

- Sunday, 10 Jun, noon at my house, discussing the contents of this letter

Looking forward to your comments, I remain,

Oddr Lions Blood


Greetings from Viktor Black Talbot.

The new LAOR has not yet been posted and, thus, there are no new items to report from Laurel at this time save for what has already been sent from Lions Blood.

In Service,

Viktor Black Talbot


The following items have been forwarded to Laurel and are tentatively scheduled to be decided on in June 2012:

Caterina Fortuna. New Badge. (Fieldless) A rose purpure, barbed and seeded vert, within and conjoined to a drawn bow argent.

vs Alana Buchanan [May 2010, Caid]: "(Fieldless) A rose purpure within and conjoined to an annulet argent."

- CD per X.4.a.iii, for fieldless vs fielded armory.

- CD per X.4.e, for change in type of bow vs annulet.

Commentary suggested an artist's note regarding the thin-line aspects of the bow. However, this may be

expected for a narrow, argent charge on a fieldless submission form.

Dagrún Stjarna. New Device. Per pale argent and sable, a raven rising contourney and a fox sejant counterchanged and on a point pointed azure an estoile argent.

James Graham of Mugdock. New Name.

<James> and <Graham> may both be found in "Names From Old Edinburgh, 1597-1598" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien) (

Commentary suggests that this may be in violation of RfS V.1.c, and that the name of James Graham in relation to Mugdock may be worth protecting. We present this question to Pelican.

Magnus Ysenberg. Resub Device. Per chevron azure and Or, 3 quavers counterchanged.

Nuala Ine Sláine New Name. Ermine, a winged frog tergiant vert, on a chief sable three mushrooms argent marked sable.

Forwarded as Nuala inghean Sláine.

<Nuala> is found in the annals in 1226, 1342, 1349, 1352, 1371, 1372, 1387, 1404, 1455, 1468, 1478, 1592. (

<Sláine> is found in the annals in 1259, 1336, 1339, 1340, 1343, 1481, 1498, 1569, 1578. (

We note an SFPP for a metronymic (daughter of Sláine). We refer to the following precedents:

[Cadlae Locha Erne] [...] precedent only allows registration of metronymic bynames with fully Early Modern Irish names; the given name here is Middle Irish. [Cadlae Locha Erne, A-Calontir, May 2006]

[Caiterína inghean Mháirgrége] "Based on this new evidence we feel that a properly constructed Irish metronymic should be considered a weirdness instead of reason for a return by itself. An unmarked metronymic is still unregisterable." [Caiterína inghean Mháirgrége, A-Calontir, Jul 2001]

The matronymic nature of the name would appear to force the langauge to Early Modern Irish, and so the examples we located of <Ine> -- entirely Manx -- would not be compatible. Because of this, commentary recommended changing <Ine> to <inghean>, but otherwise we were unable to answer and address any grammar/lenition aspects of the name, and request help in doing so. Because of the change in language from <Ine> to <inghean>, we have contacted the submitter to ask permission for the change, and await a response.

Wilfrid Ahenobarbus. New Name.

Wilfrid Ahenobarbus. Blanket Permission to Conflict with Name, "Wilfrid Ahenobarbus".

This item was embedded in the submitter's name submission form. While it uses the recommended text, it does not possess a signature and thus does not technically meet the requirements of AH III.C.4. However, given that it was on the original submission form, we suggest that it should be given as much validity as the submission itself. In the meanwhile, the submitter has been emailed, requesting an actual signed copy in the event Laurel disagrees with this suggestion.

Wilfrid Ahenobarbus. New device. Per chevron inverted azure and sable, in chief on a flame Or a boar's head erased gules.

vs Reimond of Ipstones [Jul 2010, Calontir]: (Fieldless) On a flame Or, an ivy leaf gules.

- CD per X.4.a.iii, for fieldless vs fielded.

- There is a possible CD per X.4.j.ii, if a flame is seen as simple enough to void. The mere presence of ray-like projections does not seem sufficient to deny voidability:

[Gules, on a fess rayonny argent three torteaux.] This is clear of Roise inghean ui Ruaidhri, Gules, on a fess rayonny argent between two arrows fesswise reversed Or three roses proper. There is a CD for removing the arrows. There is a second CD under RfS X.4.j.ii. as there is a substantial difference between a roundel and a rose. [Ed. note: Implies that a fess rayonny is simple enough in outline to be voided.] [Arganhell merch Briauc, Sep 2005, A-Lochac]

(Editor's note is in precedent itself.)

We forward this question to Wreath. If the flame is simple (and in this emblazon, it seems at least as simple as rayonny), then this item would appear to be clear of Reimond. Commenters also suggested the per chevron line may be too low. However, from the May 2011 CL: "A chevron etc. placed above a single charge or group of charges in base may be further up on the field.". We therefore request clarification from Wreath for the case of a single, non-forced primary charge leading to adjustment of the per chevron (inverted) line. We would suggest an artist's note to make the tusks and tongue contrasting, to aid identifiability.

The following items have been returned for further work:

Aleassandra Le Fevre. - Name Change from Holding Name.

This item was pended on the Apr 2012 IL, and is now returned for conflict with Alexandria Le Fevre [Oct 2003, Atenveldt].

James Graham of Mugdock. - New Device. Per chevron inverted sable and gules, on a chevron inverted argent five thistles proper, in base a cross crosslet fitchy argent.

This item is returned per RfS VIII.1.b: "Armory must arrange all elements coherently in a balanced design. Period armory usually places the primary elements of the design in a static arrangement, such as a single charge in the center of the field or three identical charges on an escutcheon. More complex designs frequently include a central focal point around which other charges are placed, like a chevron between three charges, but the design remains static and balanced. Designs that are unbalanced, or that create an impression of motion, are not compatible with period style."

We cite the following precedents:

[Argent, in pale a chevron inverted gules charged with three roses Or and a tree eradicated proper.] [...] In this submission the chevron inverted and the tree can only be interpreted as co-primary charges, as they are of approximately equal visual weight and neither occupies the center of the shield. This combination of ordinary with non-ordinary charge in a single charge group produces an unbalanced design. Without period evidence for such a design, it is not registerable. [Issobell nic Gilbert, Apr 2005, R-Caid]

[Gules, in pale a tyger rampant contourny reguardant maintaining a goblet and a chevron inverted Or charged with five beehives gules.] A charged chevron inverted abased is at least two steps removed from period style, and if it were being considered for the first time, would be returned. However, the size, angle, and placement of the chevron inverted is exactly the same as in his previous submission, returned June 2004. The previous return dealt only the voiding of the charge, and how it could not be done on a chevron inverted abased. The return cited precedent to support this -- all dealing with the voiding. As he has fixed the reason for the previous return, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt and reluctantly registering this. Future submissions of a charged chevron inverted abased will be returned for non-period style unless accompanied by period heraldic examples. [Voron Gregor'ev syn Tsetseneviskii, Nov 2005, A-Atenveldt]

We suggest the submitter contact us for a potential redesign provided by Red Flame.

Malcolm Radcliffe. - New device. Vert, on a cross throughout between four bears statant affronty, arms to dexter argent, four arrows points to center sable.

This item is returned for redraw.

We cite the following precedent from the May 2008 LOAR:

[Gules, two falcons close addorsed regardant argent.] This device is returned for a redraw of the birds. As emblazoned, the falcons are in trian aspect. In addition, they are drawn so large that they appear to be walking up the side of the shield; on resubmission they should be drawn smaller. Either problem may have been sufficient grounds for return; the combined problems are definitely sufficient grounds for return. [Qoyor Singqortai, May 2008, R-An Tir]

We suggest the submitter contact us for a potential redraw provided by Red Flame.

No conflicts found.

Salomea de Haesel. - New Device, Azure, a mullet of six points pierced, in chief a lion couchant contourney between two mullets of six points pierced Or and on a point argent two thistles conjoined proper.

This item is returned for style issues.

We cite the following from the Sep 2000 LOAR:

[Per bend sinister argent and azure, an octofoil within eight octofoils in annulo counterchanged.] Size is not the only thing that determines a primary charge. We were unable to devise a way to describe arrangement of the charges in a way that did not imply that they were a primary charge surrounded by a secondary group. Such arrangements cannot use the same type of charge. The problem could be solved by arranging them in a diamond (1,2,3,2, and 1) or in a square (3,3, and 3). [Yin Mei Li, Sep 2000, R-Artemisia]

We suggest the submitter contact us for a potential redesign provided by Red Flame.

The following items have been pended:

Dmitrii Luchnikov. - New device. Argent, an arrow vert.

This item is pended while the name is in commentary. No conflicts found.

1: Alasandra Donato - New Device

Argent, a peacock Pavonated guardant azure

Submitter's branch is Dragon's Laire.

Submitter's name was registered January, 2012, via An Tir.

2: Dmitrii Luchnikov - New Name

• Submitter desires a male name.

Submitter's branch is Dragon's Mist.

The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

From [Wickenden] Paul Wickenden of Thanet, A Dictionary of Period Russian Names (Online edition, ):

- Dmitrii (m) --Great Prince Dmitrii. 1262. [Gra 9]

- Luchnik (m) -- Shirko Luchnik, Mozyr' craftsman. 1552. [Tup 444]

o Pats: Luchnikov (Pakhom Luchnikov, scribe). 1634-42. [RIB II 746]

3: Kira Baranova - New Name

• Submitter desires a female name.
• Sound (Not specified) most important.

Submitter's branch is Three Mountains.

The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

Kira (f) -- "mistress, ruler." Fem of Kir.

Kira. c1202. [Ste 216]

Vars: Kiraanna. c1202. [Ste 216]

Baran (m) -- "ram."

Baran Pavlov, peasant. 1557. [Tup 39]

Dims: Baranko (Khvedor Baranko, boiar's peasant). 1565 [Tup 39]

Vars: Boran (Olekseiko Boran, peasant of the Kotorsk parish0. 1498. [Tup 39]

Pats: Baranov (Malysh Baranov syn Ovtsyn). 1500. [Tup 234]

Pat Vars: Boranov [from Boran] (Melentei Zinov'ev syn Boranov). 1571. [RIB XII 5]

-ova is meant to mean "daughter of Baran" - this is the most important part of the name to me, as it is a "nod" to my hometown of Baranof Island.

3: Kira Baranova - New Device

Purpure, a chevron gules fimbriated 2 eagles displayed and a wolf's head couped and ululant argent

4: Spike Dirk Zoetaert - New Name

• No changes.

Submitter's branch is Madrone.

The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

Spike Dirk Zoetaert

Spike is a pre-pended by-name, Dutch, 1358-61. See attached e-mail conversation with Aryanhwy regarding the previous identification of "Spike" as a given name and her re-evaluation, as well as her suggestion of this name construction. The source of this name is "De rekeningen van de grafelijkheid van Holland uit de Beirse periode, deel: 1358-61, a collection of Dutch trade documents with listings from 1358 to 1361." In the listing on St. Gabriel "Spike" is described as a pre-pended by-name,

Dirk is a male given name, Dutch, 1358-61. The sourse of this name is "De rekeningen van de grafelijkheid van Holland uit de Beirse periode, deel: 1358-61, a collection of Dutch trade documents with listings from 1358 to 1361." on St. Gabriel,

Zoetaert is a by-name, from Bruges, 1400-1550. This name is found in "an analysis of the name data from _Historie de la Gilde des Archers de Saint Sebastien de la Ville de Bruges_ by Henri Godar, Bruges, 1947. The data entered here is from the index on pp. 103-269. All names were dated except for those taken census of all members, begun in 1514. For those names the name field is blank but they have been identified with a comment."

4: Spike Dirk Zoetaert - New Device

Argent, a schnecke issuant from base maintaining on the outer swirl three schneckes, vert.

5: Vivien des Lauriers - New Name

• Submitter desires a female name.
• No major changes.

Submitter's branch is Three Mountains.

The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

Vivien appears in Lord Colm Dubh's "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris"

des Lauriers appears in Lawrence Phillips' "The Dictionary of Biographical Reference"

5: Vivien des Lauriers - New Device

Azure flaunched Or seme-de-lis vert and in chief a Cross of Calatrava argent

Thus concludes the May letter.

In Service,

Viktor Kladivo

Black Talbot Herald

An Tir OSCAR counts: 4 New Names, 4 New Devices. This gives 8 new items. Resub Counts: There are no resubmissions on this letter.