Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:08:26 +0000 From: Zenobia Subject: Re: spring miscellaneous Quoth Esperanza, who always has the most interesting questions: > 1. Can a bordure of flames still be used? I don't think so. This is a place to check precedent (and precedents are at home) so I cannot say for sure, but I am almost positive this is not allowed any more, based on recollection and a tremendous lack of apparent period models for such a design. Of course an example of period use of a bordure of flames, or even some Ordinary of flame, would help a lot towards documenting this in any case (precedents can be overturned in the face of documentation.) The usual way of dealing with the appearance of a bordure of flames is to use a bordure rayonny in some flame-like solid color (red, yellow). I suppose one could even get that alternating tongue look by doing rayonny and compony in gules and Or. > > 2. Remind me again why we don't use tenne. > Tenne was never part of the standard heraldic tincture set of argent, Or, sable, vert, azure, gules (and rarely purpure). Tenne falls into a category of later, pseudo-tinctures called "stains." These weren't always used like regular colors, but were sometimes used in other contexts (at least according to the treatise writers who must be taken with a grain of salt), like abatements of honor. While the stains are mentioned in later heraldic treatises and the occasional mention of a 'tawny' color shows up here and there, it is so rare as to be considered, by the SCA, as not being period. Further confusion ensues due to the fact that tenne can be considered to range anywhere from the tawny color of a lion proper (goldish brown) through orange. So it is not a color that can be easily recreated. (Of course the same gun can be levelled at purpure, there is reason to believe that in period it ranged from wine purple to a kind of a greyish through deep blue-indigo. But for whatever reason, purpure has been counted as a (rare) distinct color for quite a long time, see the Lacy arms in England on the Valence casket, and the earlier arms of the Kingdom of Leon, where the lion is purpure, before it transitioned to gules in later period...) Where's the precedent?... somewhere at home :-) I have no doubt that it can be dug up pretty easily, if it isn't already enshrined in the RfS or another controlling document. I note that the glossary of terms (the official one on the Laurel web page) gives: Tincture. One of the seven standard hues used in Society armory, or a fur. The tinctures are the colors azure, gules, purpure, sable, and vert and the metals argent and Or. Furs include the ermined furs and vair, potent, scaly, papelonny, and their variations. This doesn't (obviously) include tenne. I can't find 'tenne' or 'stain' in the glossary. > 3. I have been told that royal branches (Kingdoms, Principalities, = > Baronies) can use their device on their heralds' tabards, as they are = > the voice of the nobility, but shires can use only the herald's office = > badge. Where, then, does a shire herald fit in the great order of = > things? > Told by whom? I am aware of no regulation prohibiting (or policy encouraging) the use of a Shire arms on a Shire heraldic tabard. There is something to the viewpoint that under the standard model of heraldic officers, a Herald is attached to a Noble who has personal arms which match that of his fief (so the Duke of Brittany's personal arms are the arms of the Duchy of Brittany, and that's what he wears on his tabard.) The SCA shire, without a ruling noble, doesn't quite match that pattern. But does this mean that the SCA shire's herald can't use the Shire arms on a tabard? I'm not so sure of this. The SCA shire does not have a ruling noble, true... and so whatever the SCA shire is simulating in its period recreation wouldn't need a personal herald, right? But yet, the SCA in its infinite (?) wisdom requires a branch herald for all branches, regardless of type. Because of this SCA-ism, I think it would be a parallel and appropriate SCA-ism to make a Shire tabard with the Shire arms for the Shire herald. However, I think an interesting way of approaching this issue would be to do research into period armigerous localities like cities and burghs -- see if they ever had a herald wearing a tabard with the city or burgh arms on them. London would be a good place to start. But even if the deepest of research fails to turn up an example of a herald wearing arms of a city or burgh in period... I would not advocating banning the use of Shire arms on a Shire herald's tabard. If the SCA stopped requiring Shire heralds, that'd be something to reevaluate, but until then I wouldn't reccomend it. (And if the SCA stops requiring some or all branch heralds, we will have plenty to reevaluate that is more pressing than this!) Just one herald's opinion Zenobia Couronne Rouge